Welcome to the first S/FJ thread. Pitch in, be civil, give it your all, do it for your comrades.
Which lists have inspired or vexed you? Are there lists that should exist in the world but don’t? Did a list teach you something and then frustrate you? Is there a global change you’d make to lists of cultural products? Are you on a crusade for or against?
Feel free to just add a list: Best quarantine recipes, unexpected political heroes, things that you miss, ten things the Ariana Grande album might sound like. Engage with the Perfect Recordings stuff or ignore it entirely. Be as personal as you want to be. This is, as far as I can tell, a safe space, and I aim to keep it that way.
The Spin 100 Greatest Guitarists list was the second thing I thought of after Eddie Van Halen died. (The first was “Ice Cream Man.”) The day it pubbed, 10 years ago, my coworkers and I gathered around the screen and howled with delight at each new entry to see our faves finally represented, and with liberation from all the EVH/Vai/Jimi lists. To include Jam Master Jay, who played guitars in a sense, and to forget the usual technical gods, and on such a platform as Spin - a beautiful fuck-you, at the time. Is this a genre of list? “List-Busting Lists”?
I don't love who is and isn't on this list. I would argue that Hendrix is referenced far more than he is listened to. There are no Jamaican musicians on this list, not nearly enough electronic buddies (stick to your idea! go beyond the guitar!), and Sister Rosetta Tharpe is missing. But this is exactly the kind of list I am proposing—a spur to discussion, rather than a bid for the canon, which is a suppression of discussion.
We don't need a canon! I recently started "Moby Dick" after avoiding it precisely because of the canon bubble wrap. Especially taken in conjunction with Talia Lavin's "Moby Dick Energy" podcast, it's a joy. On its own, it's a joy. "Moby Dick" does not need a canon to survive—it's just too good. I would love to see a Ten Nautical Novels Better Than "Moby Dick" list, even though I know, right now, that it's a goddamned lie.
When I was in junior high in the 80s, Rolling Stone's list of Greatest Albums Your Dad Played in the Car turned me on to Exile on Main Street, Squeezing Out Sparks, This Years Model, & a bunch of other albums I glued into my Walkman. It's easy to dismiss the canonical-exclusionary trip, but lists are (or were?) one way kids stuck between coasts find out about transformative shit. I make lists for my students now, mostly of books of poetry, but recently got a request for a death-metal primer & was happy to oblige.
I think this is 100% correct. The book for me, and it was huge, was a small British paperback that compiled mostly top tens by American and British critics. The name escapes me, though I think I've written about it. Ellen Willis is in there, as are Greil Marcus and Bob Xgau and a bunch of British people. There's a DJ on the back cover, who I think edited the book? It's not yielding to any Google searches. Maybe you all can help!
Anyway, this was the first place I saw Can and the Velvet Underground mentioned. For year, it was the *only* mention I'd ever seen, and it was only British writers who listed them. For that one band alone, this book was insanely useful. And the British writers listed James Brown more often than the Americans. Nuts!
Can is not anywhere in the Rolling Stone 500 list, which more or less invalidates it. I would take "Tago Mago" at 489, even though that's rough. Wait, The Fall aren't in there. Dang! Also no Meat Puppets. Two Meters albums (which is awesome) but no Chic and only one Kraftwerk, and it isn't "Computer World," which is insane. That one album is responsible for a chunk of both techno and hip-hop, and I will absolutely die on that hill.
Ah—so anyway. What is the solution? None, most likely, unless you want to ape US party politics and set up an MTV Awards list to match the RS list's Grammy position, and that would eventually bend to the arc of the other and be indistinguishable. Luckily, the internet does weaken any and all lists as canon, and that's great.
Oh yeah, the Velvets were one of those for me, too, though I came to distrust LR's hipster archness. The new list is more annoying to me for what it puts in than for what it leaves out: Kanye, Radiohead, Arcade Fire, John Mayer, Bon Iver, Miranda Lambert's worst album (still good though!) ...
We won't agree on Radiohead (adore) or Kanye (gotta deal with him) but I don't disagree that the adds are a little reach-y. But all of that fuels interest. For instance, I have only used the search engine somebody else put together; I have not looked at the RS list itself. But now that it's making me mad...here I am inching towards that URL. They're clever, this lot.
Right, that's the point. If I made the list, I'd put Iron Maiden & Slayer in the top 10, with no Beatles till #11, fully aware it would create a howling.
Ha—I just looked at the Rolling Stone list and it seems fine! I only got to about 300 and thought "Good enough!" That's too many albums to argue with, tbh. LOL Can is in there. I think I searched an older list. Ah, it's fine.
I wish lists and list makers would strive to make the lists as useful as possible. The Rolling Stone list is kinda useful, you can see if you've missed any biggies or have any big blind spots. Then, the usefulness gets swallowed up by the insanity of a definitive ranking.
Unranked 'start-here' lists are really really useful. I wish there were more (and they weren't Spotify algorithmic creations):
'Don't know where to start with Tom Waits? Start with these 10...'
'Don't know anything about Dub music? Start with these 10...'
on the flipside, really fun lists that are useless: obsessive lists of tracks that session drummers, like bernard purdie or james gadson or jim keltner, played on.
I'd love to see an unranked list of all the musique concrete that was done as a soundtrack to some kind of live dance event. The recent archival Ellen Fullman release on Besom Presse got me thinking about how often that format has a good way of keeping the genre focused. Lists that are about tracking niche qualities like that seem like they'd be fun to have more of.
You can disregard a bunch of my comments below. I looked at an old version of the RS list. And there are my bulleted thoughts.
• This is a good list! You would only own about ten entirely useless albums if you bought all of these.
• Too much of the writing is vague and promotional. Feels like a very long ad.
• It's too long. 500 of anything is like rice, with apologies to Mitch Hedberg.
• It can't be wrong if it's this long. It doesn't feel debatable. It's also so unwieldy on the browser page that I can't imagine ever looking at it again. Feels like one of those "10 Pictures of News Anchors You Won't Believe" click trenches.
• There are three Pavement albums and no albums by The Fall. O boy.
Uh, I'm gonna need to hear more about this nugget from today's (6/28/23) missive: "duo between Brötzmann and Han Bennink, presented by John Corbett at Brown University in 1986" -- FALL '86? I just want to make myself feel bad about missing it, I suppose.
Sasha, have been a fan of your criticism since your articles in the New Yorker a few years ago opened my eyes musically, in several respects. Finally decided to join your Substack today. Do you mind post suggestions? If not, I would love to read your thoughts on the new Kanye record, here or elsewhere. Hope you are well.
Hell yes! Thank you so much. The Donda discourse is kind of thick right now but I would happily say something if anything emerged. It's just a fog. I did like Todd Rundrgen's comments.
Interesting. That it was rushed out? Or that he's a dilettante? I'm a bit surprised because your review of - was it Yeezus? - really opened my eyes to what an important artist Kanye is, once you get past the celebrity BS.
I think he's vastly important and deeply confusing and exhausting. Ignoring him would be insane. I also don't feel up to tackling his neurotic defenses right now. I am glad he named a song "Jonah" (same as my younger son).
The Spin 100 Greatest Guitarists list was the second thing I thought of after Eddie Van Halen died. (The first was “Ice Cream Man.”) The day it pubbed, 10 years ago, my coworkers and I gathered around the screen and howled with delight at each new entry to see our faves finally represented, and with liberation from all the EVH/Vai/Jimi lists. To include Jam Master Jay, who played guitars in a sense, and to forget the usual technical gods, and on such a platform as Spin - a beautiful fuck-you, at the time. Is this a genre of list? “List-Busting Lists”?
List-Busting Lists is a great idea. Here is that list: https://www.spin.com/2012/05/greatest-guitarists-all-time/
I don't love who is and isn't on this list. I would argue that Hendrix is referenced far more than he is listened to. There are no Jamaican musicians on this list, not nearly enough electronic buddies (stick to your idea! go beyond the guitar!), and Sister Rosetta Tharpe is missing. But this is exactly the kind of list I am proposing—a spur to discussion, rather than a bid for the canon, which is a suppression of discussion.
We don't need a canon! I recently started "Moby Dick" after avoiding it precisely because of the canon bubble wrap. Especially taken in conjunction with Talia Lavin's "Moby Dick Energy" podcast, it's a joy. On its own, it's a joy. "Moby Dick" does not need a canon to survive—it's just too good. I would love to see a Ten Nautical Novels Better Than "Moby Dick" list, even though I know, right now, that it's a goddamned lie.
I really liked Tom Whitwell's 52 Things I learned in 2019 https://medium.com/fluxx-studio-notes/52-things-i-learned-in-2019-8ee483e6c816
ah cheers I'll check this out
When I was in junior high in the 80s, Rolling Stone's list of Greatest Albums Your Dad Played in the Car turned me on to Exile on Main Street, Squeezing Out Sparks, This Years Model, & a bunch of other albums I glued into my Walkman. It's easy to dismiss the canonical-exclusionary trip, but lists are (or were?) one way kids stuck between coasts find out about transformative shit. I make lists for my students now, mostly of books of poetry, but recently got a request for a death-metal primer & was happy to oblige.
I think this is 100% correct. The book for me, and it was huge, was a small British paperback that compiled mostly top tens by American and British critics. The name escapes me, though I think I've written about it. Ellen Willis is in there, as are Greil Marcus and Bob Xgau and a bunch of British people. There's a DJ on the back cover, who I think edited the book? It's not yielding to any Google searches. Maybe you all can help!
Anyway, this was the first place I saw Can and the Velvet Underground mentioned. For year, it was the *only* mention I'd ever seen, and it was only British writers who listed them. For that one band alone, this book was insanely useful. And the British writers listed James Brown more often than the Americans. Nuts!
Can is not anywhere in the Rolling Stone 500 list, which more or less invalidates it. I would take "Tago Mago" at 489, even though that's rough. Wait, The Fall aren't in there. Dang! Also no Meat Puppets. Two Meters albums (which is awesome) but no Chic and only one Kraftwerk, and it isn't "Computer World," which is insane. That one album is responsible for a chunk of both techno and hip-hop, and I will absolutely die on that hill.
Ah—so anyway. What is the solution? None, most likely, unless you want to ape US party politics and set up an MTV Awards list to match the RS list's Grammy position, and that would eventually bend to the arc of the other and be indistinguishable. Luckily, the internet does weaken any and all lists as canon, and that's great.
Oh yeah, the Velvets were one of those for me, too, though I came to distrust LR's hipster archness. The new list is more annoying to me for what it puts in than for what it leaves out: Kanye, Radiohead, Arcade Fire, John Mayer, Bon Iver, Miranda Lambert's worst album (still good though!) ...
We won't agree on Radiohead (adore) or Kanye (gotta deal with him) but I don't disagree that the adds are a little reach-y. But all of that fuels interest. For instance, I have only used the search engine somebody else put together; I have not looked at the RS list itself. But now that it's making me mad...here I am inching towards that URL. They're clever, this lot.
Right, that's the point. If I made the list, I'd put Iron Maiden & Slayer in the top 10, with no Beatles till #11, fully aware it would create a howling.
Ha—I just looked at the Rolling Stone list and it seems fine! I only got to about 300 and thought "Good enough!" That's too many albums to argue with, tbh. LOL Can is in there. I think I searched an older list. Ah, it's fine.
Is The Fall in there? I was getting a strobe migraine from all the artwork loading. Maybe! It's too fucking long to be any fun.
I wish lists and list makers would strive to make the lists as useful as possible. The Rolling Stone list is kinda useful, you can see if you've missed any biggies or have any big blind spots. Then, the usefulness gets swallowed up by the insanity of a definitive ranking.
Unranked 'start-here' lists are really really useful. I wish there were more (and they weren't Spotify algorithmic creations):
'Don't know where to start with Tom Waits? Start with these 10...'
'Don't know anything about Dub music? Start with these 10...'
etc
on the flipside, really fun lists that are useless: obsessive lists of tracks that session drummers, like bernard purdie or james gadson or jim keltner, played on.
I would love all three of those lists!
I'd love to see an unranked list of all the musique concrete that was done as a soundtrack to some kind of live dance event. The recent archival Ellen Fullman release on Besom Presse got me thinking about how often that format has a good way of keeping the genre focused. Lists that are about tracking niche qualities like that seem like they'd be fun to have more of.
o hell yes
So here is the RS 500 PDF: https://docdro.id/YIYtXiQ
You can disregard a bunch of my comments below. I looked at an old version of the RS list. And there are my bulleted thoughts.
• This is a good list! You would only own about ten entirely useless albums if you bought all of these.
• Too much of the writing is vague and promotional. Feels like a very long ad.
• It's too long. 500 of anything is like rice, with apologies to Mitch Hedberg.
• It can't be wrong if it's this long. It doesn't feel debatable. It's also so unwieldy on the browser page that I can't imagine ever looking at it again. Feels like one of those "10 Pictures of News Anchors You Won't Believe" click trenches.
• There are three Pavement albums and no albums by The Fall. O boy.
• No Gang Starr.
• I ended up sort of deflated. It's fine!
Uh, I'm gonna need to hear more about this nugget from today's (6/28/23) missive: "duo between Brötzmann and Han Bennink, presented by John Corbett at Brown University in 1986" -- FALL '86? I just want to make myself feel bad about missing it, I suppose.
Sasha, have been a fan of your criticism since your articles in the New Yorker a few years ago opened my eyes musically, in several respects. Finally decided to join your Substack today. Do you mind post suggestions? If not, I would love to read your thoughts on the new Kanye record, here or elsewhere. Hope you are well.
Good idea! Are you a subscriber?
Been a subscriber for a minute. Upgraded to paid today because writers and other artists should be compensated.
Hell yes! Thank you so much. The Donda discourse is kind of thick right now but I would happily say something if anything emerged. It's just a fog. I did like Todd Rundrgen's comments.
Interesting. That it was rushed out? Or that he's a dilettante? I'm a bit surprised because your review of - was it Yeezus? - really opened my eyes to what an important artist Kanye is, once you get past the celebrity BS.
I think he's vastly important and deeply confusing and exhausting. Ignoring him would be insane. I also don't feel up to tackling his neurotic defenses right now. I am glad he named a song "Jonah" (same as my younger son).